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Possible clue as to the new direction of Fuji X control?

Discussion in 'Fujifilm X News & Rumors' started by exaggerated perspectives, Apr 27, 2018.

  1. AdrianG

    AdrianG Premium Member

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    If I compare my first car phone with my iPhone though, I’d have to agree that the smart phone is cleverer and more portable, too.
     
  2. Rubyjon

    Rubyjon Premium Member

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    +1
     
  3. Jonimages

    Jonimages Premium Member

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    I doubt it will be used for cameras that appeal to users in these forums. There is a segment that is growing up on camera phones. Like it or not the introductory cameras are going to get more like camera phones in operation.
     
  4. cug

    cug Premium Member

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    I've been asking for a control like this since the X-Pro2 came out to make the stupid ISO dial actually usable. I think it's a way of making a camera appeal to more than one group of people. With the proper technology and implementation, it wouldn't make a difference to the current generation of Fuji cameras, once set up to behave this way. But it would make a massive difference for the people asking for faster, more modern ergonomic concepts.
     
  5. YogiMik

    YogiMik Premium Member

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    Beauty lays in reasonable simplicity.
     
  6. AdrianG

    AdrianG Premium Member

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    The XP2 ISO dial works as it should. It is simple enough to manually set ISO a few times a year and efficiently prevents those it is not suitable for from buying the XP2.

    There are plenty of cameras out there to suit everybody but only a few to suit just a small group. They should be left alone.

    I very much doubt you can shoot any camera of your choice faster than I can shoot my XP2. Ultimate speed is what it is built for. However, for those looking for more mainstream controls and everything, there’s the x-H line.
     
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  7. double00

    double00 Premium Member

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    I agree with your assessment and understand why Fuji would consider this - However, I am not giving up my X-Pro2 any time soon.
     
  8. bralk

    bralk Premium Member

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    +1
     
  9. cug

    cug Premium Member

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    Given that you are narrow-mindedly set on your opinion, it doesn't seem worth my time discussing this further even though I find every single one of your statements very much debatable.
     
  10. AdrianG

    AdrianG Premium Member

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    All of my statements are very much debatable as they only reflect my personal opinion based on my limited experience. However, I do own an XP2 longer than almost everyone and therefore claim my opinion regarding this one is based on a wee bit more than hearsay. It is meant to appeal to a relatively small group of people. It is a niche product with a number of disadvantages, which are inherent in the concepts making it attractive to its niche. Without these disadvantages it’s niche advantages would be impaired, making it less attractive for its niche. There are Fuji offerings for almost everyone. I can’t quite understand why so many want an XP2 even though it’s not the right camera for them. There are plenty of cameras out there to suit almost everyone except those the XP2 is for. We currently have the choice between the XP2 and the M10, but the M10 is inferior in almost every way and under most circumstances plus its price tag is prohibitive for many people. The X-Pro is for a small minority, yet worth the while number of people, exactly what they need, want and have been waiting for for a long time, +/- exactly the way it is right now. I don’t know to which group you belong to which degree, but if you are the XPro type and your only problem is the ISO dial, I strongly suggest you live with it happily. It is a rather insignificant control and complaining about it is like complaining about your Le Mans racer not having a big enough boot to hold a bale of hay.
     
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  11. cug

    cug Premium Member

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    I think you vastly underestimate the power of a good implementation. A good implementation would give you the same thing you have today, but instead of the ISO / shutter printed, you'd get it "displayed", but with good technology you'd be hard pressed to notice an actual difference in usage. Now, other people could use it differently. The X-Pro has some advantages and some appeal, but there no such thing as a product that can't be improved. In this case you could change the display layout to use 1/3 stops, or map different features on the "lift and rotate" function.

    What you get is added functionality that does not impact the ability to act exactly as before.

    In German I'd say "Nicht alles, was hinkt, ist ein Vergleich" – unfortnately I don't know a great saying in English that expresses this the same way, it basically means that this is a useless and bad comparison.
     
  12. AdrianG

    AdrianG Premium Member

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    @cug Meiner vergleich hinkt nicht, Kamerad. Aber es mag schwierig sein die prise von unernsthaftigkeit in meinem posts zu lesen. However, for the way of shooting this camera is best suited, setting ISO manually tends to be counterproductive in terms of both speed and IQ. Never the less I agree subtle improvements could be done to it. I also absolutely agree that ISO should be full stops only and 1/2 or 1/3 stops optional on a command dial in the same way as SS, for those who found out what that could be good for.

    I understand your point and I am not against progress or a few useless gimmicks, but its basic control layout is part of the appeal of the XP2. I don’t mind video and 4K. I can see a fair number of people taking advantage of this additional functionality, while I have no disadvantages. I don’t know if I could currently shoot video, I think I’d have to assign a record button first, but I don’t need to think about it and it doesn’t get in my way. Countless new ways to set up the basic controls OTOH would add countless interdependent new menu items, things to consider and to go wrong and countless new pages full of questions to this forum without the benefit of adding new functionality to ISO, SS and ExComp. The XPro is an already grenzwertig complex camera for many amateurs to set up as it is, I don’t think more of the same would be beneficial.
     
  13. cug

    cug Premium Member

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    ;-)

    I'm still not certain whether you understand what I mean:

    The way I imagined (and suggested to Fuji a few years back) was such that the "basic control layout" could stay exactly the same. If you don't change the settings, it wouldn't change how the camera presented itself to you. You'd see exactly the same things on the ISO dial, you'd use it in the same way.

    But the way I suggested it would open up options for people who don't like split control (two controls changing shutter speed, depending whether you want full or 1/3 stops), it would allow people to do away with the current way of "displaying" shutter speed and ISO for a more ergonomic option, it would allow other information or adjustments to be put on this control.

    That's the beauty of it: you get EXACTLY what you want with the default behavior, but it change personality much easier for other people. Niche markets are okay as long as they aren't losing too much money, but a slight improvement on the controls as well as on the viewfinder (for example a larger EVF, longer eye point, and 3 different magnifications for the OVF) would vastly improve the camera without touching the basic character or handling at all.

    I get that people don't want the character of the camera changed, what I'm proposing wouldn't change it (unless you are dead set against information digitally displayed in the same style as it is printed on today, even in the same quality is easily possible today, with very little power draw, so "always on").
     
  14. AdrianG

    AdrianG Premium Member

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    I am. There are waaay too many displays in waaay too many things. We just built a new kitchen. Got rid of two walls expanding it from 16sqm to 40sqm, replastered the walls, new triple glazed windows, the lot. Do you realise how difficult it is to find an electric oven and induction hob without a display? We ended up buying professional appliances at a healthy premium because they don’t have touch control and displays. Cooking with touch control is like making all your phone calls using Siri.
    Engraved and filled with paint? :D

    I get your point and it’s valid, however my opinion remains unchanged. There’s almost always more than one truth, truth actually is highly subjective and a debatable concept in itself. Talking about debatable concepts, doesn’t the Leica Super Large come close to what you propose?
     
  15. cug

    cug Premium Member

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    Not really. It's a display that's just a display. What comes "closer" are the temperature controls in an Audi TT. I'm neither talking about useless touch controls, which I am fine with as long as I don't have to use them, nor am I talking about something that gets in the way of the existing concept.

    I'm not against displays or flexible controls out of principle of being against displays, I'm against displays that either make no sense (e.g. "smart appliances" as you point out, I don't have an example out of the photo world, but that's mainly because I'm not following new cameras very much) or are done badly (e.g. Nikon Df).
     
  16. AdrianG

    AdrianG Premium Member

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    @cug I really like my XP2, but sometimes I need to convince myself quite a bit it’s worth the trouble and expense to shoot it at least half of the times, despite the ease and beauty of use and beautiful IQ of my M4-2/M4P‘s.
     
  17. johant

    johant Premium Member

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    But far less intuitive.

    My employer has forced an iPhone on me. I am not happy.

    (I don't even understand how the bloody camera of that thing works!)
     
  18. cug

    cug Premium Member

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    That’s debatable. Text messaging or anything other than making a phone call was absolutely horrible on old phones.

    You might think it’s less intuitive because it does so much more that you don’t understand, but that’s the wrong metric. Have you tried using the camera on an old flip phone?
     
  19. johant

    johant Premium Member

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    Actually yes. Or almost a flip phone; a Nokia E61i. And that's my second pet peeve lol ... what happened to physical keyboards!?
     
  20. cug

    cug Premium Member

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    Literally nobody cares about physical keyboards. Nearly everybody cares about screen real estate. On phones watching porn trumps writing essays.
     

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